Michael Levin Λ Anna Ciaunica [Show Notes]

Abstract

This theolocution with Michael Levin and Anna Ciaucina investigates the nature of intelligence and selfhood. Traditional neurocentric and individualistic frameworks are seen as insufficient because Levin’s research on bioelectricity and collective cellular intelligence demonstrates that cognitive capacities aren’t limited to brains and instead are distributed across biological systems of all sorts. Meanwhile, Ciaunica’s research on embodiment and intersubjectivity argues that the self is relational, developing through interaction with the so-called “other” from the earliest stages of life. Curt Jaimungal explores the implications of these perspectives for our understanding of cognition, development, aging, and the nature of consciousness itself.

Guest Introductions

• Michael Levin: Professor at Tufts University, a biologist recognized for contributions to developmental and regenerative biology. Levin’s laboratory investigates bioelectric signaling, collective intelligence of cells, and the boundaries of synthetic biology. Levin’s work bridges biology, computer science, and the philosophy of mind.

• Anna Ciaunica: Philosopher and cognitive scientist researching self-consciousness, embodiment, and intersubjectivity. Ciaucina’s work is about approaching identity and the self via the role of the “other,” as well as developmental perspectives. Ciaucina’s employs an interdisciplinary approach, drawing from philosophy, psychology, and neuroscience.

Theses of Each Guest

This section outlines the core arguments presented by each guest, explained at two levels.

Quick and Simplified:

• Michael Levin: Intelligence is not limited to brains but is distributed across biological systems.

• Anna Ciaunica: The self is not a solitary entity but is fundamentally relational, developing through interaction.

Accurate and Full:

• Michael Levin: Intelligence and cognitive capacities aren’t exclusive to brains or neurons but are properties of biological systems at various scales, driven by goal-directedness and information processing that can be understood through a “spectrum of persuadability,” where different tools are needed to effectively interact with different systems based on their cognitive capacities. These capacities are present even in seemingly simple organisms and can be seen in processes like morphogenesis, regeneration, and even cancer.

• Anna Ciaunica: The self is not an isolated, pre-formed entity but is (at its core) relational and comes into being through a continuous process of interaction with the “other,” beginning with the universal state of being within another during gestation. This “second-person” perspective is foundational for the development of self-awareness and agency. The self can be understood as a dynamic “attractor state” that is actively maintained within a constantly changing environment.

Memorable Impactful Quotes

This section features memorable quotes that encapsulate key ideas.

“The biggest mistake is thinking self is understood by individual study alone. Wrong. Look wider… start with the second person, not the first, for understanding.” - Anna Ciaunica

“Terminology’s value is its use as a toolkit.” - Michael Levin

Keyword and Definitions Explained Simply

• Self: An individual, bounded entity.

• Cognition: The process of acquiring knowledge through thought, experience, and the senses. Here, it’s broadened beyond brains to include various systems.

• Neurocentrism: The view that the brain is the sole or primary locus of cognition and intelligence.

• Goal-Directedness: Behavior oriented toward achieving a specific aim or outcome.

• Morphogenesis: The biological process that causes an organism to develop its shape. “Morph” is another word for “shape.”

• Attractor State: In dynamical systems theory, a state or set of states toward which a system tends to evolve.

• Embodiment: The idea that the mind is fundamentally shaped by and dependent on the body and its interactions with the world.

• Relationality: The way in which two or more things are connected or related to each other.

• Distributed Intelligence: The idea that intelligence is not located in a single entity but is distributed across a system.

• Bioelectricity: Electrical activity in biological systems.

• Second-person perspective: A perspective that emphasizes the role of the “other” in the development of self-awareness.

Key Insights (The "Aha!" Moments)

This section is dedicated to surprising findings and paradigm shifts discussed in the episode.

1. Distributed Cognition (Michael Levin): Learning, problem-solving, and information integration are not exclusive to neural networks. These capacities are present in simpler biological systems, suggesting a broader distribution of intelligence in nature.

2. Primacy of the "Other" (Anna Ciaunica): Understanding the self necessitates beginning with the "other," as individual selves are not formed in isolation. For instance, Ciaunica argued that the "second-person" perspective is foundational, using the example of our development within the womb to show that we are actually fundamentally relational beings from the very start.

3. Limitations of Disciplinary Boundaries (Both): Rigid disciplinary boundaries can hinder the understanding of complex phenomena. Assumptions within one field may be contradicted in another. For instance, Levin noted that the plasticity of cell behavior is readily accepted in neuroscience but often resisted in molecular genetics (as they tend to emphasize genetic determinism).